2011 Jun 8th

The Weekly Wednesday Wrap Up – Hoboken Condo Sales & Activity for the Week of June 8th.

Hoboken Condos Sales & Activity – Week of June 8, 2011

The Hoboken Rental Market on the Rise

The blog Housingwire.com has a post that says the rental markets are about to explode with some cities seeing a 25% increase.  I can tell you unequivocally that we cannot keep rental units listed in my office because they get rented by the first person who sees them.  Yes, the Hoboken rental market is booming. Now if only Hoboken could get out from under this rent control quagmire once and for all.

New Luxury Rental Building at 14th & Willow

willow It looks like environmental remediation work may soon be underway at Willow14.  Advance Realty is building a LEED certified, 7-story, 140 unit, luxury rental building on the corner of Willow & 14th Street.  They are planning for 387 below-grade parking spaces and 22,000 square feet of retail on the ground floor.  Wonder how much of that will remain empty like many of the empty storefronts in Garden Street Lofts & Maxwell Place. There is also mention of a community center but no details as to what that will entail or who will be entitled to use it and for what purpose.

The Real Hoboken Real Estate Game-Changer:

It’s no secret that there are plans to raze the Hoboken Housing Authority public-housing projects back on Jackson & Harrison Streets either.  The HHA’s “Vision 20/20 plan” is for a “sustainable, transit-oriented, mixed-use, mixed-income neighborhood” (in their own words).  Existing residents will be relocated in phases.  The plan provides for “a variety of mixed-income housing options, allowing for upward mobility within the neighborhood and a deconcentration of poverty.” Given the bad rep the west side of Hoboken has long suffered (remember the days of being told not to go to the President streets?), this is dramatic. If this happens, it is bound to affect property values of the condos on Jackson & Monroe Streets in a positive way.  According to the announcement, “the neighborhood redevelopment plan also allows for the extension of the city street grid through the site and includes facilities for recreation, transit, early childhood education and charter schools, retail space, shops and restaurants, and community program space for job training.”

This Week’s Condo Sales & Activity:

  • 385 active Hoboken condo units – vs. 388 last week
  • 11 DABOs (Deposit Accepted By Owner i.e. under contract) vs. 9 dabos last week
  • 26 sold vs. 22sold
  • 30 new listings vs. 17
  • 28 price changes vs. 22
  • 57 expired listings vs. 5

Studio & 1 Bedroom Hoboken Condos:

11 new listings

1 dabos

  • 606 Adams #8 listed on Mar 28 for $379.5k;  reduced to $363k on Apr 14;  $350k on May 10.

6 Sold

  • 1500 Hudson 4K listed on Oct 23 for $400k;  reduced Jan 20 to $385k;  sold for $380k.
  • 1025 Maxwell #709 listed on Feb 2 for $529k;  sold for $507k.
  • 724 Bloom #4 listed on Jun 6 for $340k;  sold for $320k.
  • 219 Monroe #2 listed on Sep 24 for $249k;  reduced Nov 19 to #239k;  Feb 2 to $229k;  sold for $225k.
  • 1025 Maxwell #308 listed on Feb 20 for $725k;  sold for $712.5k.
  • 1500 Garden 6i listed on Mar 3 for $570k;  sold for $548k.
  • 222 Grand 3D listed on Mar 29 for $395k;  reduced Mar 29 to $375k;  sold for $375k.

5 price reductions

161 Total Active 1BRs

Two Bedroom Hoboken Condos:

17 new listings

8 Dabos

  • 531 Park #3 listed on Apr 8 for $389k.
  • 800 Jackson #701 listed on Feb 17 for $614k.
  • 109 Jackson 2B listed on Apr 19 for $510k.
  • 222 Grand 2A listed on May 21 for $500k.
  • 1025 Maxwell #811 listed on Apr 29 for $839k;  reduced May 19 to $819k.
  • 137 Park #1 listed on Apr 22 for $339k.
  • 700 1st St  #7J listed on Feb 14 for $529k.
  • 727 Monroe #306 listed on Mar 20 for $530k.

17 sold

  • 1300 Grand #423 listed on Mar 21 for $519k;  sold for $512k.
  • 400 9th W4A listed on Apr 6 for $560k;  sold for $560k.
  • 409 4th #2 listed on Mar 14 for $429k;  sold for $415k.
  • 727 Garden #1 listed on Jan 10 for $619k;  reduced on Feb 23 to $600k;  sold for $586k.
  • 257 12th 4B listed on Mar 9 for $375k;  sold for $355k.
  • 402 9th E5E listed on Mar 1 for $624k;  sold for $610k.
  • 456 9th #8 listed on Mar 11 for $369k;  sold for $362k.
  • 264 5th #4E listed on May 31 for $675k;  sold for $654k.
  • 139 Park #C listed on Mar 4 for $369k;  sold for $345k.
  • 420 Jeff #5C listed on Mar 15 for $419k;  sold for $405k.
  • 225 River $2604 listed on Jan 7 for $2.095mil;  sold for $1.74mil.
  • 1125 Maxwell #226 listed on May 20 for $925k;  reduced Aug 6 to $900k;  Sep 16 to $875k;  Oct 15 to $850k;  Oct 28 to $835k;  sold for $822.5k.
  • 1021 Grand #4E listed on Feb 7 for $475k;  reduced Feb 23 to $465k;  sold for $455k.
  • 1500 Garden  9K listed on Jan 23 for $849k;  sold for $855k.
  • 600 1st St. #1 listed on Mar 30 for $559k;  sold for $540k.
  • 1025 Maxwell #302 listed on Mar 19 for 1.45mil;  reduced on May 7 to 1.4mil;  Jun 16 to 1.35mil  sold for 1.317mil.
  • 321 Adams #7 listed on Apr 11 for $575k.

21 price reductions

191 Total Active 2BRs

Three Bedroom and Larger Hoboken Condos:

3 new listings

2 dabos

  • 315 Monroe #4 listed on Jun 6 for $367k.
  • 125 Monroe #1 listed on Apr 9 for $609k;  reduced Apr 14 to $599k;  Apr 20 to $579k;  Jun 15 ro $520k;  Aug 4 to $499k.

2 sold

  • 81 Jeff #2 listed on Mar 8 for $575k;  reduced on Mar 14 to $549k;  Mar 31 to $529k;  sold for $515k.
  • 715 Mad #1 listed on Mar 7 for $775k;  sold for $765k.

2 price reductions

34 Total Active 3BRs

Hoboken Condo Open Houses

If you are in the market for a Hoboken condo, our Hoboken Open House Google Map is your best source for locating every open house in Hoboken. It is the single, most complete listing available and we were the first ones to do it. We compile the information by hand from all possible sources to provide you with all the information you need in one spot. It’s posted on Friday every week.

Want to Receive New Listings & Price Reductions Daily?

If you would like to be eee new listings and price reductions each weekday in either 1br, 2br or 3br categories just email us at [email protected] letting us know which size(s) you would like and we’ll add you to the  list.

For more information you can always contact us at 201 993 9500.

Thanks for reading and, as always, we welcome your comments!

  1. thwnd

    the links seem to be taking me to november 2009. is anyone else having this problem?

  2. Lori Turoff

    Link re-direct is fixed. Sorry for the inconvenience!

  3. teaorcoffee

    I can’t imagine that they would actually raze the public housing projects. Wouldn’t that put some politicians out of business?

    There’s going to be so much uptown retail. In addition to Willow14 and Maxwell Place, you’ll eventually have retail space 1450 Washington and Park on Park (the garage will become a new mixed-use project as well).

  4. Lori Turoff

    Maybe you can’t imagine it but Carmelo Garcia, the head of the HHA (and a local politician) has initiated it.

  5. bz

    Does anyone know when they are going to start the 1st phase (relocation?) and how long the whole transformation is going to take? I’m interested in the charter school and all the new retail spaces as I live in that part of the town and am looking forward to enjoying all of the goodness they promise.

  6. leafgreen99

    Curries Woods on the JC/Bayonne line had high rise towers that were raised and replaced with town houses and a school (there may have been other types of housing options as well.) The Duncan Avenue projects had the same thing done. These were very large towers and they no longer exist.

  7. Lori Turoff

    Swaths of Old Town in Alexandria, VA had traditional high-rise projects that were demo’d and replaced with town homes. Montgomery Green in Chicago was dynamited. It can happen and it has always been a great improvement to the community at large when it has.

  8. Leslie

    I remember very well from late 1980s into 2003 not wanting to go west of Willow– or having any reason to, for that matter. And certainly did venture towards President streets ;).

    After attending a celebrate-in 2007 new year’s eve party in a building on Grand, I thought, “wow, this is a really nice place.” I wound up buying and living in the same building. Though I was scared as hell walking back to apt in Shipyard, tipsy and alone at 12:30am that night, Jan 1 1007.

    I have seen little improvement in living conditions in the 5th ward since I’ve been here (April 2007), but it’s not nearly as “scary” as I thought it was 😉 I would have no problem crossing town on foot a little tipsy now, with common sense in order. Nor are President streets, many blocks of which have seen a HUGE changes in development — some good, some cookie-cutter-bad.

  9. Leslie

    Oops meant did NOT venture into President streets…

    I remember very well from late 1980s into 2003 not wanting to go west of Willow– or having any reason to, for that matter. And certainly did NOT venture towards President streets.

  10. Craig

    Where exactly are the existing tenants in the housing projects being moved to? There are 806 units in the HHA projects. Even if you relocate one building at a time as its replacement is built, where are those tenants staying during construction? If the replacements are for mixed-income use, then some of the low-income people will have to be permanently displaced to make room for the new “upwardly mobile” residents. The use of the term “upward mobility within the neighborhood and a deconcentration of poverty” is code for gentrification. What little diversity Hoboken has will be wiped out. Wonderful. True, there will be higher property values that follow this gentrification process. But it means, you guessed it…higher property taxes for everyone! Yippee!

    As for the president streets: Monroe, Jackson, and Harrison are still a bit sketchy – and they’ll always be too far from the action no matter what you do. But from Madison onward heading east is fine nowadays. I live on Adams, and it’s great. I’d rather live there than on traffic clogged and absurdly narrow older streets like Bloomfield where finding street parking is a fantasy.

    Lastly, the retail storefronts in the new building on 14th & Willow can do well if they price them reasonably. I suspect that Maxwell Place and Garden St. Lofts storefronts remain vacant because of absurd asking rents.

  11. leafgreen99

    Oops…I meant razed. I heard that HHA was the receving location for families moved out of JC projects back in the Troy Washingtond days. I don’t recall if the relocaton was due to tearing down JC buildings…but something like that.

  12. Lori

    I’m curious exactly how much day-to-day interaction you and your family have with the residents of the HHA. You say “what little diversity Hoboken has will be wiped out”. Are you not familiar with Applied Housing and the many moderate income units they own? Or the subsidized units at Church Square, Marine View, and the other similar building in Hoboken? Don’t they provide diversity? What about the argument that our archaic ill-defined rent control laws create diversity – I think you made that argument yourself in a prior comment – doesn’t that count?

    Leafgreen99 – I am not sure but I have heard that because the HHA is Federally-funded the residency requirement is county-wide and not by city. Therefore current residents often do come from Jersey City and other parts of Hudson county and can be relocated into housing in those towns as well as in Hoboken. I’d love to hear if someone knows more about the specifics on this though.

  13. Craig

    Lori – being a person of color who experienced growing up in the upper middle class suburbs, I don’t need to interact daily with every person who looks like me in order to appreciate having them around. I’m not going to engage you on that topic, because you’ll never understand. Suffice it to say, I don’t want that experience for my kids. That’s why my fiance (who is Chinese-American) and I have chosen to remain in an urban environment for the long-run – we prefer to raise our kids in a diverse place.

    I’m very familiar with the various moderate income buildings in town as two of them are neighbors to my building and I know a member of the decidely not-moderate income Bogdanos family that lived in Marine View (since you’re in Hoboken real estate, I’m sure you know that family name). These buildings still have residents that consist primarily of the homogenous demographic typical of Hoboken. Rent control keeps costs down, thus tempering gentrification to some extent, so it too remains consistent with my viewpoint. If we eliminate it and return the entire city to market rate rents, along with eliminating the HHA in favor of the “upwardly mobile”, you tell me what you think the demographics of Hoboken will eventually look like. Those HHA residents will be slowly ushered out of Hoboken, never to be seen here again.

  14. Lori

    What is the point of a “diverse” community when the low-income minority residents are ghettoized? Have any large public housing projects built in the 40’s through the 70’s been called a success? If so, why are they regularly being torn down and replaced with mixed income housing? I believe the experts in such matters agree that to have these people take ownership of the community they news to be fully integrated into it – not segregated into unsafe projects.

  15. Ron

    Lori, I sense a racist undertone to your comments.

  16. Craig

    Ron – let’s not go there.

    Lori – I agree completely. Ghettos are surely not the answer. But the urban ghetto is not a natural phenomenon. They were created as a result of the practice of redlining that occurred in our nation’s history starting with the National Housing Act of 1934. Unlike that past reality, the intentions with this HHA plan for Hoboken may very well be benevolent. But typically when “mixed” income housing is built, that means a mix of middle and upper income. Low-income residents are rarely included in that mix because the affluent do not wish to live among them. So they are displaced.

    When I see terms such as “upward mobility within the neighborhood” to describe housing development, history does not inspire confidence that all socio-economic groups will be included. Look at what has happened in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. How many artists are left there?

  17. Lori

    Craig, I don’t think you can compare the plight of the “artist” to low income people. I used to live around the corner from the WestBeth in the West Village – a subsidized loft complex for “artists” inhabited mostly by people who found a way to scam the system by claiming their breakfast cereal was art. What happened in Soho, the East Village and Williamsburgh is a whole other, very interesting discussion I’d be happy to have another time.

    But sticking to the topic at hand. Please re-read my comments. I purposely quoted the press release on what the intention & plans are for the development. I don’t have an opinion (yet) as I don’t know enough about it. You may be correct that in the end, low-income families will be displaced. What does that mean exactly, anyway? If a family comes to the HHA from Jersey City and then ends up back in Jersey City is that really displacement? Until the actual details are made public we don’t know who is going where and who will be living in what mix of housing. My job is to give you the info as I find it. I never gave my opinion on the plan.

    I only take issue with your statement that what little diversity Hoboken has will be wiped out. That’s a pretty broad statement. I know there is other subsidized housing in Hoboken – I believe we have more per capita than just about anywhere (I wish I remember where I saw the stats). There is no evidence yet to make a claim like that and it ignores the many people of color or of Hispanic descent or senior citizens who live in these large apartment complexes. I totally agree there are some people now living in those building who shouldn’t be. That’s the whole problem with not having an ongoing needs test. You can own a $3 million house in Deal, drive a Mercedes, and if you present your “income” properly still live in Marine View or Church Towers. That, in my opinion, is just wrong.

    You know little about me but I, too, grew up as a first-generation child of Italian immigrants in a very mixed, Irish, Italian, Jewish, German part of Ridgewood, Queens. There is nothing I like more about NY, and often feel is lacking in Hoboken, than the “melting-pot” in which I was raised. Forgive me if I offended you in any way because I actually agree with you otherwise.

  18. Craig

    No offense taken Lori. I don’t deny that my opinion is based on speculation and that we’ll have to take a wait and see approach as to what happens. I was just stating the facts as to what historically happens in these situations. That doesn’t guarantee it will happen here. Still, even you acknowledge that Hoboken is hardly a melting-pot. While not literally the only source of diversity in Hoboken, displacing HHA residents would surely not help with that shortcoming. And what’s to stop the residents of the similarly old and obsolete large subsidized complexes such as Church Towers from being next as more redevelopment for the “upwardly mobile” continues in the future? There’s only so much land to go around in Hoboken and money talks.

    As for the hypothetical of being displaced back to Jersey City if you came from there – no one should be forced to relocate to a different city against their will. Whether you came from that other city or not is irrelevant. Lastly, I see quite a few Mercedes and other high-end cars in the parking lots of those large subsidized buildings such as Church Towers. I too am bothered by seeing people there gaming the system. But especially in the 3rd ward in which I live, it’s nearly impossible to win a city council seat without the support of residents of those buildings. So don’t expect an ordinance requiring an ongoing needs test anytime soon.

  19. Lori

    I’m with you 100% on your comment, Craig. It’s a disgrace how some people milk the system at the expense of others who are truly in need. Regarding diversity, I love JC for exactly that. Reminds me much more of my many years in NYC and less of a college campus.

  20. laki

    Okay I have 2 questions for all you people who think that price controls and subsidies are a good thing:

    1. What percentage of people who receive food stamps in US actually cannot afford to buy food on their own? (there are 44 million food stamp recipients, 1 in 7 of the entire population!) Cell phone penetration rate is like 97% right now and projected to be 99.9% in a few years. So how can EVERYONE afford a monthly cell phone bill, but somehow 15% of the population cannot afford food? How can you have a cell phone, wear new shoes, wear jewelry, have makeup on, have highlights in your hair, have your nails done, and claim you don’t have enough money for food? This just insults elementary logic.

    2. What percentage of people who receive food stamps are overweight? These people cannot possibly be hungry. Have you ever seen what hungry people look like? Have you seen pictures from WW2 concentration camps? Have you seen pictures from Ethiopian villages in the 1980s following historic droughts? Those people were hungry. Obese people in US are not.

    You can ask analogous questions regarding housing. But the answers there are not obvious and require a lot more analysis and thought. What’s so good about food stamps is that the answers are so trivially obvious and they so glaringly demonstrate how these subsidy programs are just wealth transfer mechanisms that ultimately have very little to do with “helping the needy”. In fact, they have the opposite effect. They condition people to become dependent on the system and not self sufficient.

  21. DK

    I don’t like American diversity! That is why I live in Hoboken. I have no clue what is the benefit of diversity the way it is understood and used in US. The most successful and prosperous democracies in the world are Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Denmark and they all are as Un-diverse as they can be.
    If by diversity you mean; people of creative professions or intellectuals, as oppose to cubical-slaves then I agree completely ,but for some reason in US when people raise diversity argument it somehow involves just low-income dwellers or people with mental disabilities. I don’t need that diversity, no thank you.

  22. Tiger

    >> but for some reason in US when people raise diversity argument it somehow involves just low-income dwellers or people with mental disabilities. I don’t need that diversity, no thank you.

    What is wrong with people with mental disabilities? Are you saying that people with mental disabilities should be cast aside? somewhere far? What would you do if your sister or your brother had mental issues? What would you do if your SON or DAUGHTER are born with mental issues?

    What would you do if YOU develop mental issues? You know most ‘crazies’ are born normal.

    I hope you get what you DESERVE

  23. teaorcoffee

    Laki, some people on food stamps are overweight because it is the inexpensive food that is affordable. Go to Whole Foods (or even ShopRite) and buy produce and whatnot and see how far your dollar gets you. You can get a lot of frozen pizza, soda and ramen for the same money.

    I see your point on the cell phones and manicures, though! I don’t get it. I actually have relatives overseas that racked up cell phone charges that were unreal, way beyond their means. Why they would have an equivalent of an $800 phone bill is beyond me.

  24. bokenite

    Agree with DK – These diversity initiatives just add to alienation and stereotypes by breaking people down into stats. I find it more offensive that it implies all people of X color/gender/wealth/age/religion think the same, so we need to mix it up according to those guidelines. Diversity has become a feel good catch-all term that can be spewed around as a PR buzzword, implying some inherent goodness and universal good. Well, if you want diversity so badly, you can move to MLK Boulevard in Jersey City. Let’s see how great your kids grow up there. Meanwhile, please raze the projects so my bike doesn’t get stolen.

  25. laki

    “Laki, some people on food stamps are overweight because it is the inexpensive food that is affordable.”

    This hypothesis fails miserably when you observe the globe as a whole. You have numerous examples of countries and societies where people’s incomes are way lower than what bottom 15% of America makes and people there tend not to be overweight to the extend they are here. And in those countries average people cannot come even close to affording material things that the bottom 15% of Americans take for granted. And there too the cheapest thing to buy in the store is “bad” food. So, at best one can say that your argument does contribute to the problem, but it is NOT causing the problem.

    The bottom line is this: If you eliminated food stamps completely, the overwhelming majority of people who are on them would not be hungry. MAYBE at best there would be a few less cell phones out there but that’s about it. If you eliminated housing subsidies, the overwhelming majority of recipients would not be homeless. List goes on and on for just about any subsidy program you can think of.

    And New York is not the melting pot because of the subsidies. It is so because of all the immigrants who come to live and work here. Those first generation immigrants most of the time do not receive subsidies. Most of the recipients of these programs are Americans who find the way to game the system to their benefit. It is just human nature. If things are being handed out for free, the opportunists will find a way to get in the line.

  26. Hoboken Dave

    Does anyone happen to know the going rate for one of these HHA units? How does it compare to a similar unit in, say, the Jersey City Heights or Journal Square area?

    I question the NEED for most of the residents to live in Hoboken. Why do they NEED to live within the city limits? Hoboken is very accessible by public transportation, especially from those Jersey City areas. How would it make their lives impossible to live somewhere 5 minutes away from where they currently live? I understand someone’s WANT to live in Hoboken. I want to live in Hoboken, therefore I pay the retail rate for the luxury of living in Hoboken. If I couldn’t afford it, I would move to an area that is accessible to Hoboken. Why do these residents not have to do the same?

  27. Craig

    Laki – the cell phone market penetration number you cite does not mean nearly every single person in the U.S. has a cell phone. It reflects how many are in use and it is inclusive of the fact that 20% of the population has more than one cell one. The fact is that of the 310 million residents of the U.S., only 234 million of them use a cell phone as of May 2010. This leaves 76 million who do not and most of them are the poor.

    Tearcoffee is in fact correct about the reason people on the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program or ‘SNAP’ are disproportionately overweight (the program hasn’t been called “food stamps” since 2008). SNAP participants consume less produce and healthy options and purchase at least 40% more sugar-sweetened beverages than any other consumer group. Maximilian Schmeiser, an economist with the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, noted that each additional year of SNAP participation increases the BMI of women and men by 1.6 BMI points (2009).

    The Economics and Human Biology journal uses an example that an average American woman, 5 feet 4 inches tall, will be 5.8 pounds heavier if she is on SNAP than someone who is SNAP eligible, but not receiving food assistance. Another contributing factor to overweight and obesity issues in SNAP participants may be the lack of access participants have to healthy option because low-income areas are more often served with mini-marts that sell chips and soda as opposed to grocery stores. You can’t cite other countries in comparison, which have completely different food offerings (and portions) – a fact reflected in the relatively overweight nature ot the American population as a whole relative to other contries.

    Hoboken Dave – no one said the HHA residents need to live in Hoboken. It just happens to be where the government chose to build housing for them. Why should they now be forced to relocate to make room for the “upwardly mobile”? I bet you wouldn’t like it if you were forced from your home just because someone richer than you wanted it.

    The posts by DK and bokenite do not justify a response.

  28. Tiger

    Guys, I need to remind you, you live in Hoboken, NEW JERSEY. Some of the comments you’d think folks are living in a luxury condo Central Park West rubbing elbows with Madonna or something…

    Love Hoboken, 13 years and counting. But please, humble down a bit. Those comments about Jersey City are not necessary.

  29. Hoboken Dave

    Craig – Using the phrase “forced to relocate” is slightly strong when you remember that this is government subsidized housing. That means they are receiving a huge benefit that is paid for by taxpayers. It may sound a little harsh, but they “get” to live there, it is not an inherent right. I understand that it can be emotional, but there are other factors to consider; this would be beneficial to the community. (and by the community, I don’t mean just me, or rich people, or whoever. I mean the HHA community.)

    I find it very weird that you use “upwardly mobile” as a bad thing. The beauty of mixed-income housing is it fosters a spirit of upward mobility amongst low-income households. When poverty is centralized, it feeds on itself and the community stays poor. Upward mobility is the American dream — working your way up from the bottom — so I’m a bit confused why you view that as a bad thing.

  30. Craig

    Hoboken Dave – If you live somewhere and are told to move elsewhere, you have been forced to relocate. The definition does not change whether you are in gov’t housing or market rate private housing. When the gov’t forces owners of privately-owned housing to move it is simply given a different name: “eminent domain”. Do you have kids? If so, you might understand why some of these people might not want to leave and take their kids from their friends.

    The term “upwardly mobile” is a myth. 10% of the U.S. population owns 90% of its wealth. 83% of all U.S. stocks are in the hands of 1% of the people. These ratios have not changed in the last 100 years. Further, 66% of the income growth between 2001 and 2007 went to the top 1% of all Americans. Lastly, 61% of Americans “always or usually” live paycheck to paycheck, which was up from 49% in 2008 and 43% in 2007. Once upon a time, the United States had the largest and most prosperous middle class in the history of the world, but it has been shrinking at a steady rate – and it is not joining the upper class. Looking at the stats, who exactly is it that you think is enjoying all the “upward mobility”? The utopian image you paint of poor and affluent living together singing kumbaya is lovely – but it is not based in reality.

  31. laki


    Are you counting 5 year-olds and 80 year-olds in your cell-phone numbers? There are 308 Million people in US, and 26% of them are under the age of 18 and 6% of them are over the age of 75. You cannot possibly be telling me that 308 is the number you want to use in the denominator to support your argument???

    I’m not even going to go into your other points. They’re full of flawed reasoning, that I don’t even know where to begin. It’s not a matter of me agreeing or disagreeing with your conclusions. It is just that your arguments are logically flawed. There is a book out there called “Flaws and Fallacies in Statistical Thinking” you should seriously look into it. And I’m not kidding. Most people who look for statistics to support their opinions which were formed on the emotional basis to begin with tend to routinely abuse the basic laws of mathematics.

  32. Hoboken Dave

    Craig – You trivialize the difference between private and public housing when perhaps you should not. Eminent domain is bad because you are taking property from an owner who INHERENTLY has a right to it.

    Making little Bobby move away from his friends is not part of the equation. You must take in to account that maybe you are doing every Bobby that lives there a disservice by having him live in a ghettoized community that might not properly foster the self-sufficience it takes to better himself and said community. Mixed-income public housing is a strategy to make a better community for all involved, and that is a pretty good goal. As many numbers as you cite against the idea of upward mobility, you are making it even harder if you keep the same community profile that exists today.

  33. Craig

    Laki – I admit I forgot to subtract young children from the 76 million figure I posted who are not using cell phones. But if you think no one under the age of 18 or over age 75 uses a cell phone, you must be living in a bubble. Most poor people that do have a cell phone buy the prepaid ones for $30 and use it as their only phone. They tend to not have monthly landline and cell phone charges. Now, the info I posted about SNAP is hard data, not emotional reasoning. If you want to challenge the data, feel free. But don’t kill the messenger. This topic is hardly emotional for me as an upper-middle class professional. I have no emotional stake in what happens to the poor.

    Hoboken Dave – Re: taking public housing vs. taking private via eminent domain – the difference is trivial in this discussion because that is a debate about cause, while I am debating effect. I’m not arguing against mixed-income housing in principle and I am all for ending the modern ghetto. But to bring in some upper income residents to that space, room has to be made for them. I’m merely posing the question of what happens to those who are displaced to make that space. If there was a publicized guarantee that every resident in HHA will have a home in this new mixed-income project, then my objection is moot. The lack of one thus far is very telling. Lastly, if decentralization of poverty is really the goal, why not just issue Section 8 vouchers to subsidize the poor so they can live anywhere they want in town in market rate units?

  34. homeboken

    Per the HHA website, there are 1,353 units of public housing in the city of Hoboken. In addition to that, there are 154 units at Marian Towers, that are rent restricted per Low-Income Housing Tax Credits (Sec 42). If you assume that Applied Companies has an additonal 200 units of affordable housing, that brings the total “subsidized housin” (in whole or part) to 1,707 apartment units.

    If you assume an average of 2 people per unit, we get 3,414 residents that receive a housing subsidy. That is roughly 7% of the entire city population (50,000).

    The question is, at what percentage do you feel diversified?

  35. patk14

    I just don’t get the idea that people are entitled to live in a certain town or city for their entire lives. Tribeca used to be off the beaten path and has skyrocketed in value the past 20 years. If I happened to be born there, should the govt become involved and subsidize my rent so that I can remain if my income doesn’t support it? Where does it stop? Would my children be entitled to also stay in their birth home for life? If you take it to the extreme, everyone would be tied to were they were born.

    I personally would not feel comfortable being the poorest person in Upper Saddle River. I want to live in a town where I’m around the median income. If I lose my job, I’ll have to move to a location that I can afford and a smaller place. Why should the govt bail me out? Just like those poor souls who put no money down on their “home” and are screaming bloody murder when they fall behind on their mortgage payments and are forced to vacate.

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